EP 298 – Rhonda Wong – CEO at Ohmyhome – A Safe Home Is the Foundation of a Good Life

Read the best-effort transcript below (This technology is still not as good as they say it is…):

Michael Waitze 0:07
Hi, this is Michael Waitze. And welcome back to the Asia tech podcast. We are joined by Rhonda Wong, the CEO at Ohmyhome. Rhonda, thank you so much for coming in doing the show. How are you doing today? By the way, you look very orange.

Rhonda Wong 0:22
Thank you. I’m very happy to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me on your show.

Michael Waitze 0:26
It’s my pleasure. There’s a lot to cover today. And I think some of its serious, maybe some of that is less serious. But I want to try to get to all this stuff, if you don’t mind. Can we start with a little bit of your background for some context.

Rhonda Wong 0:38
I’m Rhonda Wong, I’m CEO and co founder of oh my home, which is a one stop property technology solution. If you’re looking to buy, sell rent, renovate your home, we provide all of that in a very seamless, effortless way. But our vision is to be the most trusted and comprehensive property solution for everyone. So we’re working very hard. We started in 2016. And we’re about seven years into this journey of ours. On the personal front. I’m a mom of two young children. Born in Malaysia, I grew up in Singapore went to school and University of Michigan and then I worked in Chicago as a diverse trader before moving back to Singapore. So that’s me in a nutshell.

Michael Waitze 1:23
Can you just tell me what the impetus was? For starting this? I was thinking when I was doing a little bit of research, right that I’ve moved around a lot. Okay. And yeah, but I mean, a real luck because I actually made a list for myself today to list like every place that I’ve lived. Besides that, it’s multiple countries, I’ve lived in 22 different homes.

Rhonda Wong 1:43
What we’re about to say then,

Michael Waitze 1:45
because that’s what I want to talk. That’s why we’re talking about this, because I think it’s really important that this is why it’s so important to make that move from place to place. So easy. I live in a place right now I want to move, but just thinking about how do I get my stuff from storage? How do I get the furniture that’s here? How do I get the furniture that I moved out of here back into here? And then how do I get my studio, all this kind of stuff, it’s so hard, it’s physically hard, it’s mentally hard. Talk to me about why you started this, and then what the impact is on people that are actually moving, if you don’t mind.

Rhonda Wong 2:14
thing for us on the personal front, as a migrant from Malaysia, mom and dad, they were not well to do so, you know, when we first got here, as a family of five, all five of us were living in different places, basically, due to a lack of affordability. So we couldn’t stay in one home together. Think when I was about four years old, we moved to our first home, together in Singapore. So you can imagine when we had our first home together in Singapore, it was a very different feeling. And you know, joy from just another home, you know, for us, it was just, you know, we finally we finally found the place to call ours and and I think thereafter, the reason I we had to move so many times was because when you know, times were better, you know, Mom and Dad would buy a place and then when times weren’t so good, or they needed funds for their new business venture, we would sell our place, and then we would rent another place. So this whole moving in and out of places has taken us to about 20 different places, in terms of residential properties. But what I also learned from this whole journey, aside from the real estate side of things was that it actually really doesn’t matter if your home is big or small, you know, expensive or not expensive. What really matters is that you have a good family, you’re safe, you know you’re happy. I think that found the foundation of our beliefs and value system within our company as well. Because in a real estate company in a typical company, there’s a lot of push on media to use the word upgrade. So why don’t you move from A to beta to a three better to a four beta to a land the property, it always seems like it’s not enough. And until you get to that big, wonderful castle of yours, then you can call that happiness, right. But in our company, we actually blacklist this words. So across the whole company across our team members, they’re not allowed to use the word upgrade downgrade. And it comes from our personal stories, because we don’t believe that you need to have a larger place to be happy. And we don’t believe that the entire population can all live in a very large homes, large home. So it doesn’t make sense for us, you know, in our profession to keep encouraging that behavior. So what we really want to do is actually, you know, helping people sell their home the right way, the right way, meaning you can get the best price for what your home is worth. You have a hassle free experience. You don’t stress about everything else. And in fact, a lot of people even kind of have to take leave or stop working just to get this process done. If you’re buying a home, you know we hope to be the ones that give you the most honest and transparent information, not just the properties that may customers money. So this is what really formed the foundation of how we started this company. And we wanted a company that is just good for consumers. Therefore, oh my home, my co founder Reyes and I, we had a company that’s managing investor real estate portfolio. And in that company, it was pretty much about capital appreciation rental yield. Raise was the one who said, you know, Rando, we need to do something for regular folks, you know, people who are not buying 10 properties, people were just buying one. And they’re actually starting a family or, you know, expanding their family. And, you know, people are going through difficult times in their life, you know, so. So that’s what all my home stands for. And, you know, this is the reason why we can drop everything you know, else that we were doing to focus on this business.

Michael Waitze 5:46
Do you feel like in a way, it’s metaphorical, for just a larger life experience? If you don’t mind me saying this idea that we don’t need constant upgrades, that we don’t always need to be getting something bigger or more expensive, but that maybe if we focused on just being? What’s the right word, stable, creating stability, right, and creating positive impact that over the long term, right, over the long arc of history, that that’s actually better than this constant need to upgrade? Is that fair?

Rhonda Wong 6:15
For sure, and I think that, I think that sometimes when when, you know, life is pushing people on media is pushing people too much towards the, you know, having too much desire once we start losing what’s important in life, right, which is spending time with family, you know, just appreciating nature, you know, feeling a win. Just simple things like that, that, you know, you hope that you won’t realize that too late in your life. So definitely, I think, you know, I’m, I’m always for a better world. You know, I always talk about, you know, if good people can come together and build businesses together. Imagine what kind of world we can create, you know, 50 years from now,

Michael Waitze 6:52
exactly. Do you feel like sometimes people are surprised by your personal story just based on the person that you’ve become? That they can’t imagine you in that situation? When you were four years old? Not living in the same place with your siblings and your parents? Do you know what I mean? Like, is that shocking to people?

Rhonda Wong 7:08
I think that people who don’t, who has never had that experience, they they don’t understand, and they cannot relate to it. Yeah. But I’m glad they don’t have to relate to it. I’m glad that they have, you know, they didn’t have that, you know, they had a stable home. I think there’s also the misconception sometimes that, you know, when people look at my, my sister and I, and her last job for a long time in Hong Kong was as a celebrity. It looks like we have it all right, like life is good. You know, we’re just born with everything. But but the other lesson I learned growing up, and now that I’m an adult, you know, as a mom, is that actually children? They don’t really know if they’re rich or poor, you know? Yeah, I mean, some moms tell me today they do because their friends have iPads. And you know, your kid doesn’t right. But I think by and large as when I was a kid, I didn’t, I didn’t feel poor. And I think the reason I didn’t feel poor was because I was loved. You know, so the focus was not so so much on what do I won, you know, the focus was very much about building the family together. So it’s quite a different concept from you know, children today.

Michael Waitze 8:17
I could not agree with you more, my fourth grade teacher used to tell us, right, she was a child of the Depression. And she used to tell us often when she grew up, she was poor, really poor. But everybody else was poor. Nobody even knew that that was a thing. And they just went along as as being regular kids. And it didn’t seem to matter when they grew up. So I’ve been hearing these stories for a long time. And frankly, we I grew up in poverty as well. And the reason why I ask is because no one knows that, like, they can’t tell by looking at you kind of thing. And you’re right, people always presume you were born with what you have today.

Rhonda Wong 8:46
This has actually been around the world, you know, so it seems like a life of privilege.

Michael Waitze 8:50
Exactly. But I had to work superduper hard to do that. And I think you did too. And I want to talk about this, if you don’t mind as well. I think that being challenged early on in life creates a resiliency. And I think it also allows you to build a company with that sort of challenge mentality in it. Because I think it builds companies with resiliency. Maybe you can talk about some of these challenges that you faced as well, and see how you’ve overcome them or just tell some of these anecdotal stories around that, if that’s fair.

Rhonda Wong 9:18
I think that’s there’s so many I think, you know, anyone who started their own business or you know, attempted something that’s challenging would know that problems are expected. Yeah, I don’t even think they’re surprising. They’re just expected I come to work expecting to solve problems. I think along the way, as as we were building this business, my co founder and myself are sisters. So one of the key questions we always get is how’s it like, you know, working together sisters, and I think one of the biggest challenge we’ve overcome as sisters because of our growing up together because we work together as children, you know, for all parents businesses. We have the very, very same work ethics, so we don’t have to fight Write about who’s working harder, who’s putting more hours, we don’t fight about money, and we don’t fight about power. And this are the things that all partners fight about. So that’s one part that actually has helped us, I think, overcome maybe 90% of the challenges. I think growing up as a family, you know, we’re working is three of our sisters. So, you know, three of our sisters working together, again, because it’s, it’s for greater, greater purpose greater good for the family, we are trained to be aligned, you know, in our vision. And it’s not for, you know, I come to work today, because I want to make 100 bucks, it’s, I come to work today, because I want the family to be better off. And I think this value is also carries through to our business today, where sometimes people ask, like, when you guys, when you embrace have a huge argument, how do you guys actually resolve that? And I said, well, with, with mutual respect, you know, for example, she takes care of the tech team and the marketing department, I take care of sales and operations. So she may pass a comment and say that, hey, I don’t think your sales team is converting this part of the funnel very well, you know, Rhonda, you should do something about it. And I may have my views about it. And eventually, I will make the final say on what I’ll do with a sales and operations team. And, and vice versa. So I may have my opinions about what the tech feature should be, and eventually erase the sides against what I felt about it, I will completely be okay with that, because that’s our turf. I’m just a commentator, you know, in this process. So I think you know, that that alignment, you know, and work ethic, since a young age makes it very easy for us to continue with this in our adult life. And it reduces a lot of friction and allows us to stay there, you know, in line with our goals, you know, with the company, so it doesn’t change with you know, individuals selfish interest, it doesn’t change with one person’s passion, you know, has shifted, we’re very, very focused on what is the greater good for everyone, not just ourselves, but our employees, our consumers, you know, our shareholders. So everyone that may be affected, you know, by all business,

Michael Waitze 12:15
do you feel like you’re an outlier in a bunch of different respects? I mean, you already spoke earlier about the fact that you’re not just trying to get people to upgrade, you’ve blacklisted this word. So the rest of the real estate industry doesn’t do that doesn’t blocklist that word. And I’m presuming in many other cases, in the way you run this business, you’re an outlier. But now you’re telling me that your co founder is your sister? And you’re also both ladies in a tech startup? Do you feel like an outlier? Do you get treated differently? Do you think that if two guys had started this company, and the other thing I want to say as well, from an outlier perspective is, most of the real estate businesses that get started with tech are portals, they don’t do transactions, right? which always makes me wonder why you have both sides of the trade? Maybe it’s your derivatives trading experience, that you can see both sides of the trade, you wanted to put them both together. You’re smiling, so maybe I have something right. But you you don’t I mean, do you feel like an outlier? And how does the being sisters and being ladies factor into this?

Rhonda Wong 13:12
I I’m reminded that I’m an outlier, I think so we’ve been, we’ve been showcased in many places that were the first female founded prop tech company to be listed in the States. And, and great, you know, it’s a great marketing line for us. But I think what brings to light is really that there is still this talk about gender. Because if it’s if we are truly just all human beings, then there wouldn’t be so much talk about gender and every other thing that differentiates us. So, you know, every time I hear that, you know, on one hand, I feel like, okay, great, you know, I can be a role model for other females, you know, other young young girls growing up. But on the other hand, I wish that, you know, when they do grow up someday, they don’t have to hear about the gender. You know, they don’t have to feel special because they’re the first female or the first black or the first, you know, anything. You know, we should we should just be recognized for our merits. I think the other thing about the outlier in our industry, I think that part, it’s unfortunate that we’re an outlier, because I feel that it should be the way the industry should. And all in all professional jobs, we should always do what’s best for our clients. So if you’re a doctor, you should do your best to treat and save your patient. You know, it wouldn’t be subjected to, if I do this procedure, I get paid more commission than the others. Therefore, I’ll choose the higher paying procedure, you know, unfortunately, it happens in several professions, but I think it happens more in all profession because there is by and large in the freelance market for the agents, there is no base salary. So the only way they can make money is through commissions. And if you’re looking at an average agent in the mark They only transact between zero to six deals a year, annually. So that means there are a lot of people at zero, because there’s a lot of agents at 30. So for those who are at zero to two, and Michael, you come along, saying that you want to sell your home or you want to buy a home, you may be their only customer in six months. And therefore, they kind of have to make the best of you, you know. So I think I blame the industry commission, you know, and incentives model more, because I have met many agents who are genuinely passionate about serving their customers, but they just cannot do that, because it would be against their best interest. So we started a company, we changed the incentive model around we pay our agents, they salary, how agents are not incentivized by deals, according to the revenue of the deals. They’re incentivized by customer satisfaction. Wow. So that alone changes everything.

Michael Waitze 15:59
How do you do that?

Rhonda Wong 16:01
Basically, if Michael, you come along, and you engage our company, eventually you don’t end up selling or buying. But you end up sharing a message or a referral or a testimonial, saying that, you know, I love all my home, it’s a great company, the agent who’s serving you will still be rewarded, there will still be points accrued to his month income. So we want that we don’t want our agents to force a seller to sell at a price that the seller is very uncomfortable at. We don’t want a buyer to buy something without knowing that this is the best selection for him. So we just want our customers to genuinely feel like you know, I love all my home, they’ve done their best for me, I’m so happy with my sale, my purchase my renovation. So what brings me the most joy every day, Michael, apart from seeing my team members here at the office, is really when customers come to the office. And they ask is Rondo raised at the office. And you know, the teammates will say yes, with their hesitation, because they’re thinking like, well, they’re really busy. So I’m not sure if I should say yes. So the years and the customer would go like, can I just see her for a moment, because I just really wanted to say thank you, you know, so I just met a customer earlier, a few days ago, and the customer saw me and just burst into joy and said, I’ve never met a better company than yours. I’ve renovated my home several times in my life, and you’re the only company, oh, my home is the only company that works so fast. And actually really care about what I want and not just sharing with me the quotation. And that makes me so happy. That makes me so happy. And any reminds me, well, this are the good moments. You know, sometimes people think that good moments are like the medium moments, right? Like, we’re on the news, or you just got listed and all that. But actually the good moments is when a customer genuinely is happy.

Michael Waitze 17:53
I feel like in a way, I found a kindred spirit. And I’ll tell you why. I was doing some business in April of this year. And another company was running the whole thing. I was just involved doing the things that I do well speaking, talking, interviewing, recording and stuff like that. And there was another company doing the main stuff. And during one of the prep calls, we wanted to add like something in and the guy who was running the call said that’s out of scope. And it just reminded it just made me so sad. Because it wasn’t anything really large, it didn’t really change the tenor of the thing was just one thing to add it to make it a little bit better. And it’s kind of like what you’re saying. Because my, my philosophy on this is, I don’t want to nickel and dime somebody to death. I just want to do the best work. It’s the same thing, right? I can tell a customer, okay, if we want to do that we’re going to have to charge extra. I’m not interested. Right, because I want them to be happy. And I want them to come back as well. And I think you’re saying the same thing. And that moment, you’re right. When that person comes into your office, you’re a little you have a little trepidation like, what did I do wrong? Why are they here? And they come in and say we love what you do. Because we’ve been doing this our whole lives and we’ve never had an experience like this. You win. And that’s awesome. Yeah,

Rhonda Wong 19:04
that’s, that’s awesome. That’s really awesome. I mean, when you say that’s not that’s not in the scope. It’s like people saying, you know, that’s part of not not part of my job duties.

Michael Waitze 19:14
Exactly. I hate it. I really do. I really hate it. I want to I want to go back to two things, if you don’t mind in 2000 and oh my god, what are we 23 in 2012? Probably. There was a female entrepreneur, and I use that on purpose. And I’ll tell you why in a second. Her name was Alexis Horowitz Burdock. And she founded a company called Lux Ola, you may have heard of it actually. She was on stage at one of the really early tech in Asia conferences. And they introduced her that way. And she was like, that’s the last time I ever want to hear that word. Like I’m just an entrepreneur like everybody else in this building. And that’s the last time I want to hear it and the fact that we’re still talking about it means that it’s still a thing whether you like it or not, or I like it or not, and I don’t think either one of us do. We Right. And you never grew up wanting to be a role model. But little kids can only become the things that they see. And again, I just want to share an anecdote with you. And then maybe you can tell me if you feel like I’m wrong or right here. My brother grew up in a family. But I said, we were really poor, there were no doctors around, he struggled to become a neurosurgeon, because it was so out of the realm of possibility. But that’s what he does. Now. His wife is a reconstructive plastic surgeon, but both of her mom, her mom and dad are surgeons and all her sisters are also doctors. It was the only thing she was going to do. Because it was the only thing she saw. Yeah, and I’m just curious, like, how strongly you feel about this idea, even if you don’t want it to be a thing, how strongly you feel about this idea of I guess I need to be a role model. Because I in five years, when my kids grow up, I just don’t want this to be a topic at all.

Rhonda Wong 20:56
Think when, especially when when I became a parent, you know that you are a role model? Right? You just have to do the right things, you have to do things more right than you used to do them. Right. You just have to be right all the time. So that you can honestly touch your hearts and say that yes, you know, I did that. Right? You know, I? I did a good job. You know, I, I left a good name. I think when I first started out, because when I was in my trading firm in Chicago, that was my first job. I was the only female as well. Interestingly, nobody mentioned that. I mean, I was not very, you’ll be thinking like, What do you mean, you’re not aware? You can Can’t you see with your eyes, it’s not really something I think about because I grew up in a family of, you know, three girls, and my dad never, never made us feel like a female or a male in the sense that you wouldn’t say like, oh, you’re a girl, you should be a princess. You know, don’t touch this is 30. You know, don’t lift that is heavy. In fact, we did a lot of warehousing jobs, you know, what a lift. So yeah, it’s more, my dad would say things more like, you can lift that, try it. So So that’s, that’s, I think that’s why we never really grew up feeling like, Oh, I’m a girl, I cannot do this, or I can do this. So I think even in my trading company, it was not obvious until later on, when people kept saying that, hey, that, you know, you’re the only female that you know that it’s very rare for females to be in this in this industry. And sometimes they’ll say it’s rare for females to be intact, it’s rare for females to be in real estate. And over time, I start realizing it seems like it’s rare for females to be anywhere. Because even ships, a lot of chefs are male, right? So then I thought, you know, actually, if, actually, if we stop having female events, because I’m invited to a lot of female empowering events, then perhaps it’ll be more okay. But I was wrong, I was wrong, because I then start realizing that, in many ways, I’ve been very privileged, I’ve been very privileged that my family never treated us as girls, you know, in the more most stereotypical way, I was very privileged, I, when I went to work, I was not treated like the girl, you know. And, and I think that’s how I was never, you know, very aware that, hey, I’m the only female female person here. So then I started realizing that in many parts of the world, there are many families, where girls are really made to feel like, the not so good things of girls where, you know, you’re not strong enough, you’re and you’re kind of weak, and you actually don’t really need to make money, because that’s the job of your husbands to be, so maybe go marry someone rich, you know. So I think in that sense, I was very privileged, and with that privilege, and I feel like, you know, the more I need to do something, and, and I think the only the only thing I can, I can best, you know, do this for anyone else, you know, male female voice is, it’s really just by living my life, well, you know, making life meaningful. So my dad always said that when I was trading, I made my first million by 25 years old. So people were quite happy with that everyone else outside my dad, you know, and he actually came to tell me that, I think, given that you have so much more than I do, you know, that he had when he was growing up, is that Rhonda, you need to do something more meaningful and more powerful, you know, and he said, I know that you do a lot of volunteer work. I know you do a lot of charitable stuff. But how about combining that with your work so that you can be fully focused on doing something great every day? Right? So that was really how I eventually got into this business. And, you know, when when raised was like, you know, let’s put the two together. One is a very powerful business by itself, very huge potential. huge market size, huge revenue, you know, on the financial aspects, everything is huge. But on the other side of it is the double bottom line where the larger we grow, the better the world is. So that was really how this whole concept came about. And for the first time in my life in 2016, I dropped everything else that I was working on, I stopped trading. And all I did since then is all my home. So I think that this is my, this is my best way of you know, being a role model.

Michael Waitze 25:27
Can we get back to this as well, like, I love this idea of your dad telling you, you’ve done really well. But you can do even better. It’s really great actually.

Rhonda Wong 25:38
Because my my mom, mom and dad, my dad was a bulldozer driver, when he met my mom, she was a secretary of that same company, and they were paid something like $60. And then my mom was paid $100 a month, you know, so So they obviously worked hard over the years. I mean, as a family, we all worked hard to finally be able to afford my education in the States. So my dad just felt like, you are not like us, you don’t have to work so that you can feed your children tomorrow, you know, they say you can work to build a better world that you know, Mom and Dad never had a chance to. So go do that instead of trading all day in front of your desk, which is to him not a proper job. And I don’t want to offend any trader who’s listening in. But that’s what my dad felt because he’s a speculator. So he felt like there’s no professional in trading.

Michael Waitze 26:32
Can I just tell you something. So I worked at Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs. So I think we may have talked about this yesterday, my brother’s a neurosurgeon, I went to visit my brother in Atlanta. And when we were younger, let’s just say we resembled each other enough that people that didn’t know us really well could confuse us. And I had this woman come over to me in the hall, I went to visit my brother in the hospital where he was, what do you call it? Interning, I can’t remember what they call it. But when they’re kind of like practicing to become a doctor kind of thing. And he was already performing surgery. And this older woman came over to me and said, Dr. Waitze, I really just want to thank you for saving my grandson’s life. I really appreciate it. I just had to say You’re welcome. I couldn’t say what was I meant to do, I didn’t want to ruin her thing. But it told me that he was doing something that was super meaningful and super impactful. And all I was doing was like clicking on a mouse and moving numbers around and just like literally not gambling, but speculating. And I used to say to him, If I ever lose my job, I’m only really qualified to be your housemaid. In a way that was really true. But you also do something else. In other words, you could have gotten to any profession. But can we make the point actually, that making people like giving people the ability to find the right home? And the right place to live is actually foundational in this idea of stability that we talked about at the beginning? Right? In other words, it’s not just a transaction, you’re going to live there in most cases for 1015 20 years, that’s where you’re gonna raise your family is where you’re going to be with your wife or your husband or whomever. And that that stability inside that home. You’re right. I live in the smallest place I’ve ever lived in in my whole life today. It’s the smallest by far. Yeah. And that’s from my own personal convenience. But I’ve never been happier. So you’re 100%? Right. I built a house in Tokyo, I built a $3 million house in Tokyo. Okay, so I know what that other side is like, I’m happier now. And I just want to make the case that it’s foundational what you do if you’re making it easier for people to get into a place where they can live or find another place to live? Is that fair?

Rhonda Wong 28:38
I have this line that I often share that a safe home is the foundation of a good life, a safe home, not a big home, not an expensive home, safe home. And and you’re absolutely right that, you know, yes. You know, technically we’re in the business of transactions, but the business of transactions is really not quite meaningful. It’s just a transaction. What we really want is to make sure that people have the easiest, the most seamless means to getting that part of their lives done right. And that’s that’s the home as almost everybody’s largest asset. It has to be done right. So we have all the happy occasions right people sure buying a home because they’re getting married, they have more children. But we also deal with a lot of complicated cases, death divorces. So you’re talking about either someone’s happiest moments in their life or the worst moments in their life and, and they actually need a company that they can trust. You know that you won’t mess this up for us. You know, because I’m already having a very tough time in my life. So we have this customer in our early days of oh my home in our second year. This customer Janice, she came to us saying that. I need help. I need to sell my home. And I need to buy another home that’s near my mom. And the reason was, her husband was just diagnosed with terminal cancer. And they have a young daughter. So she said, I need to sell my home, so that I have funds. And then I need to buy a home near my mom so that my mom can take care of our daughter, and I can take care of my husband. So we did exactly that for her. Two years later, was the funeral. And, and, and she saw me from a distance, she recognized me and she’s like, Rhonda, just like thank you so much for all my home. That’s Miko, that’s the last thing I expected her to say. Because I don’t even know what’s the right thing to say, in such an occasion, right. And the rest of the night, we just spent the whole night talking about her her husband, the love story. You know, and this is something what many people don’t realize is that you can just be the agent and transact. Or you can be the one who’s there for them in a very important time in their lives. And, and that’s what I stand for. That’s what I love about my job. That’s what I love about my company. And this are the moments that really matter, right? These are the moments like you say, you know, when you heard from the patient or the family of the patient, saying thank you, you know, those are the moments that matter. And those are the moments that you know, that, you know, all of the challenges all of the hardships have been, have been okay, because obviously running this data has not been easy for me.

So, you know, it’s all this moments that make you feel like okay, all this time spent all the seven years it’s been okay.

Michael Waitze 31:42
I want to end with Rhonda Warren, the CEO. Oh, my home. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it.

Rhonda Wong 31:48
Thank you very much Michael really enjoyed