EP 335 – Why Southeast Asia’s Startup Ecosystem is Thriving – Fannie Soubiele – Google Cloud

Read the best-effort transcript below (This technology is still not as good as they say it is…):

Michael Waitze 0:00
Yeah, that’s on as well. Let’s do this thing. Hi. My name is Michael Waitze, and welcome back to the Asia Tech Podcast. We are joined today by Fannie Soubiele, the Head of Venture Capital Business Development Southeast Asia at Google Cloud. Fannie, I got that right. Yeah?

Fannie Soubiele 0:17
exactly right. Thank you so much for having me. Michael.

Michael Waitze 0:20
Oh, it’s completely my pleasure before we jump into kind of the main three or four topics that we’re going to go over today. Could we give our listeners a little bit of your background for some context,

Fannie Soubiele 0:29
for sure? So I’ve been at Google Cloud for about two years now. In fact, I just celebrated my two years what they call it the Google bursary, last week. So very proud of that milestone. Prior to that, I was in the hyperscaler. It was in AWS for five years, working similarly VCs startups in the ecosystm across Southeast Asia region. That has been that faulty, because prior to that, I had spent basically my working career in this space in the past decade, from accelerators to founding a couple of startups myself and also part of an angel investing platform right now. Yeah,

Michael Waitze 1:08
I want to get to Epic angels in a bit, but I really want to go over the, if you don’t mind, right? Because I feel like you have a really unique perspective on this. I want to kind of go over the development of maybe the Singaporean ecosystm, but maybe more in general, the Southeast Asian startup ecosystem. And I think the reason why for people that are listening now and first started to come into the ecosystm, to understand that you worked at like, and maybe you can talk about them, specifically, two of like, the earliest, I mean, super earliest, accelerators and investors tell me if I have this right. But xpara and JFDI were there before anybody had even started thinking about this. Can you just reflect on, like, what that was like back then? If you don’t

Fannie Soubiele 1:44
mind, yeah, I felt like such an honor to have gone through that phase and kind of grow and be part of the journey in growing the ecosystm within Singapore and Southeast Asia. And you’re right. Xperia was probably one of the pioneer VCs. Yeah. You know, earlier in the days, that was one of my first. Actually, one of my first is the first VC that I for, and I simply just cold email the founder, Douglas right after I graduated from my Master’s class, and I’m like, I graduated wrong time. It was right at the recession, and no one want to hire this overqualified master’s degree student who doesn’t have any working experience. But I really enjoyed my Master’s class. It was in the tech apprenticeship space, and I love working with the VCs. I found like, you know, working what they call it back then, the business plan, you know, fun. It was engaging. I like meeting smart people. And I just called email and I got got the role. So I’ve been working with Sparrow for a while. You know, with the early days of the entrepreneurs, as well as the ecosystm, we were also working the government, actually, what they call it, previously, MDA, now imda, the Media Development Authority. So the experience has really allowed me to kind of uncover, how is it like to be on the investor side, to go through like decks and slides, understanding the founders problem, how to build a proper business plan, financial planning, what are investors looking for? And the community is so small, it just we stay in touch, even though I went out to, you know, kind of venture the startup world myself by studying a couple of startups, and when I got connected with my old friends, which was an ex colleague called Sherry Charlie, she was with, you know, the other two founders of JFDI, who was also kind of starting out jVi as the first start accelerator across Southeast Asia, because we all learned from TechStars back then, like how successful it was back in the US, and how can we bring that to this part of the world? So they were just kicking off, and managed to kind of just reconnect with the team and got myself a role as a community manager in JFDI, and yeah, it’s been a good fun. I kind of managed the team and the programs before I left. My last role was the CEO, so I was kind of overseeing the operations of the entire business, as well as the startups, mentors, investors network, which really expanded my my whole personal network, right? So that was amazing, because again, one thing fell to another. My next role, which was at AWS, was actually a recommendation from a mentor back in JFDI, so you could see the pattern, right? This, this special person that I was working with in the past who recommended me to the hey, let’s try this thing. And yeah, I had no clue what was cloud, or I wasn’t technical at all. But you know, after really studying, researching, exploring, going through the interview. You’re like, oh my god, this is really interesting. It was the cloud movement, or rather, the option rate was increasing back in 2017 Yeah. And I got myself into the role in AWS, and since then, yeah, cloud came in.

Michael Waitze 5:16
I love the way you describe yourself, this overqualified master student that had no business experience. It’s just kind of funny, yeah, but can you tell me this? What? Because back then? And look, I’ve, I’ve been following Singapore since 1990 right? My first time in Singapore was December 1990 so I’ve been following it for a long time. And you know, my experience was at Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs. So just really traditional banking and sales and trading. And when you were graduating, sure, in 2007 I’m guessing that’s when it was, if it was part of that, if it was that time, it wasn’t a great time to get a job anywhere, to be fair, and I lost my job because of the financial crisis. So I get it right. That’s after like, a 20 something year career. But what made you think I don’t want to go into banking or traditional banking, but this venture capital thing seems really cool, because back then, like, except for xbar, there was no jungle ventures, there was no Golden Gate ventures, there were none of these other companies. So there was no frame of reference, like, what were you looking at that made you say, I want to be involved in that thing.

Fannie Soubiele 6:17
I think there’s an influence from the study time that I had, which is kind of getting myself exposed to the valley and knowing that I can do something for myself, right, instead of kind of join the company. And I wanted to use my time one of my mentor who told me, Hey, Fanny, the resource that you have now. And the most precious thing that you have now is time, time youth. And I wanted to tell myself that I will go out there do the most adventurous stuff while I can, which is, you know, I, you know, that’s why I want to do something. So that was the goal. I wanted to be an entrepreneur at some point, and but to do that, I wanted to kind of understand how the VCs work first, before I go out there, which is what exactly happened, right? You know, once I save up my first $20,000 in the bank, I just went out all right, this is the time to just put my whole $20,000 capital in corporate entity, while I’m not, you know, not committed to, you know, marriage, kids, family, whatnot. I was my parents, which is great, you know, I stay for free. I eat for free. Let’s just put my entire savings into my very first startup. Once I save up enough from my, you know, experience as a working adult,

Michael Waitze 7:37
can I ask you this still you said you saved your first $20,000 and when I think about it, maybe 15 years ago, that seemed like a lot of money to you. I mean, I guess if you were living at home, it made it a lot easier. But do you look back on that and think like, Wow, maybe I was a little bit crazy, or do you think I definitely did the right thing? And that, like anybody who wants to start their own company should do that and not worry about having 50 $100,000 in the bank, but they should just go and do it, kind of

Fannie Soubiele 8:00
thing I’m a bit of a cautious person.

Michael Waitze 8:04
So it doesn’t sound like it’s funny. You say it doesn’t sound like it, but go ahead.

Fannie Soubiele 8:07
I mean, I didn’t want to go below 20 because, you know, that means my run will be pretty short, yeah. So I want to make sure I have enough and that doesn’t I don’t have to rely on, like, no borrowing money from friends or family. I want to be more independent. And I thought $20,000 was the magic number. I don’t know why that came from or where that came from, probably enough to survive myself and do something. Go out there, go out there, make some sales with the product I was building back then. It lasted me for a while, which is pretty cool,

Michael Waitze 8:42
super cool. So I’ll always like to ask people that start their own companies, and particularly those that have come from VC, like, what kind of characteristics do you think make a great founder?

Fannie Soubiele 8:53
So many?

Michael Waitze 8:56
Yeah, I know, but here’s what you think. Because, because when you quit your job and you said, I have this money in the bank. There was part of you that thinks I can do this. So you must have thought you had some of those characteristics, right? But then after you do it, you must think, oh, maybe I didn’t have that thing. And I’m just curious, like, how that’s changed. That view has changed, if you don’t mind,

Fannie Soubiele 9:15
yeah, I feel probably some of the top characteristics I’ll put up is definitely resilience. Yeah, because it is not easy. I started as a solo founder before I found my partner, just the journey to get someone to listen to your struggle, your cries. It’s pretty lonely and and having to go out there to sell by ourselves, to do the operations by ourselves, to to raise money for the company, or to build the product. It takes time, patience as well as resilience. Not giving up is probably like the way the goal. But at some point I did ask myself, where. Should I stop this? Yeah, so, so I was really reading, really reading, reading the book at like, you know, the tipping point on, when do you stop doing what you’re doing? Because you don’t know, where is this hating, right, right? So another thing would be being a visionary, right? Kind of building something this is probably more relevant to like a tech startup founder who wants to grow fast, scale, fast, and kind of do a big bang before exit. Not so much of a traditional lifestyle business that you’re looking for. But if you are looking at kind of a fast growth company, a visionary leader will be very helpful and inspiring for the team that you’re building, because you will be answerable or accountable to not only all the employees that you have, the customers, the investors, all the stakeholders they have, and you need to be that kind of person to inspire the people surrounding you.

Michael Waitze 10:55
Yeah, that’s the hard part. I think one of the really hardest parts, I talk a lot about discovery, and it may just be because I’m in the podcast and in the media business, but I think a lot of people talk about, you know, Product Market Fit and running out of runway and stuff like that. And I really think that the biggest issue that a starter, that a startup faces, is just being discovered, right? This idea of, Am I operating in a vacuum? Because sometimes I think it feels like that for a founder. Do you know what I mean? Where, like you’re you’re just cranking it out, you feel like you’re making progress, but you wake up in the morning after going to bed the night before, and like nothing feels like it’s changed, if that makes sense.

Fannie Soubiele 11:30
Yeah, this is where more characteristics that I’ll probably talk about, where you cut. I learned this back in Amazon times where there’s a leadership principle called learn and be curious. Yeah, and I really love it, because it’s probably my mantra as well since the beginning, of just going out and learn something every day. So as a founder, you probably still need to continuously learn on how to do things, how to manage a team, how to hire, how to manage your investors, how to raise fund, how to even build a culture within the team. So learning it’s continuous, which is something no one should ever stop, not even when you grow old or retire, and then something fun. Because I think that’s keeping at least for myself, motivated every day, when I wake up to like, hey, what’s happening today? Oh, I’ll be meeting Michael today. I’ll be my podcast, doing this together with you, or doing something else with my colleagues, a new project I’m studying up.

Michael Waitze 12:32
For example, Yeah, I bet I’m 20 years older than you are, and I could not agree with you more. I’ve learned more in the last seven years, since I started this media company, that I probably learned in the previous 25 and I think part of the and I think part of the reason why, and it’s gonna sound weird, is because I get to talk to people like you and other like investors and other founders who teach me something new. Every time I talk to them, you can’t see it, but I’m taking, like, copious notes during this conversation that we’re having, and it all turns into some kind of learning for me, like I get excited. I know a lot of people, when they want to, when they meet and talk to new people, are nervous. I’m just super excited because I get to learn, and my job is just like to ask really smart people questions. So I feel like I’m winning all the time anyway. I

Fannie Soubiele 13:13
love that. That’s exactly why I feel like I’m in this space for the longest time, and I want to continue, because it is a very exciting space. Like you mentioned, you’re constantly meeting really smart people every day, talking to founders, talking to investors, talking to mentors. And I really enjoyed that. I

Michael Waitze 13:32
love it. I love every second of it before we get into epic angels. Because I do want to spend some time talking about that as well, right? It’s very important to me talk to me about in general terms, how you think the ecosystm has changed since you first contacted Doug. I can’t believe this link for x bar, and I do believe that JFDI was actually a natural extension of what Doug was doing. Right? He started on the investing side, and then the JFDI team, I feel like, made the decision like it’s good to invest in stuff, but first you have to teach people how to build stuff. And you don’t know this, but I was actually at a couple of di demo days back at what was it called Block 71

Fannie Soubiele 14:10
yes, yeah, yeah. So what do you think’s changed those times? Lots have changed. Yeah, I think back then it’s really more about ecosystm building. It’s a lot about awareness. Is a lot about even telling our different generation parents about it’s okay to be out there running your own business, like, I don’t have to be a doctor or engineer or a lawyer. There was a lot of education to be done in terms of, you know, especially Asian parents, they came from a different generation, was completely tough, and they want to make sure that children is secured right with a proper job, like a stable job that will provide for their own family when they establish one. So there was a lot of, I guess, education from many different folks, right from a. Investors to the government was very involved back then, especially in Singapore government. They had a lot of activities around it, investing in startups as well. So that really helps to build that ecosystem. It really takes a village. It’s not just from the private sector. Definitely, public sector plays a huge role on that. And that’s how the education piece came in and allow younger entrepreneurs, or rather, you know, working adult or even graduates college students, to understand, what is entrepreneurship? How can you help solve a certain problem, to make the society a better place? Right? It’s not just one way through a specific career path, which obviously that is people are still doing that, and we still need doctors and lawyers for sure. But there are different ways of solving problems for the society, and you can actually be part of it by literally building it by yourself, gathering a few people that you like, raise some funding from people that you like, and go out there and make an impact. I think making the impact is important. I think we are now at the stage where we are really seeing that, at least in Singapore, right over the past 10 years, obviously, this has kind of snowballed with like Indonesia, fourth largest country in the world. A lot of investors went in there because they realized there’s so much potential just with pure market size. And then for Vietnam, lots of talent, especially tech talents, really hungry people on the ground, which is kind of part of the, you know, being a founder characteristics is the hungry and the hustle to go out there and sell and sell and sell or raise funding. Raise funding. So Vietnam is an interesting market as well. And of course, not forgetting the rest of Southeast Asia, there’s a lot of different nuances in each market, because the different languages, different culture and just the this infrastructure itself, right? So it created a different types of environment and ecosystem. But I think we are, we have all grown tremendously, obviously, for the past 10 years, and I don’t think it’s gonna stop, because again, technology has changed everyone’s life. Now talk about web three. Oh, sorry, not talk about AI, but no. Few years ago, we talked about web three. Right before that, it was something else, and I’m pretty sure there’s more more to come in the next few months and

Michael Waitze 17:19
years. In a way, I feel like we’re both kind of fortunate, right? Because not only have we gotten to watch this, but we’ve also been part of it, in a way, and I think that’s super cool. And again, I don’t want to talk about what you do at work per se, but that role that you have where you still have to it’s not investing per se. It’s not like accelerating, but you’re still interacting with the same people, just from a different angle and boy, it’s giving you just a great experience. Sorry, go ahead.

Fannie Soubiele 17:44
No, exactly. There’s a reason why I stay in the ecosystm, and now my role is to really kind of work with the VCs across the ecosystm to help the popular companies, simple as that.

Michael Waitze 17:53
So, yeah, I love it. So talk to me about epic, right? You know that I’ve had a ton of conversations with the founders at Epic, a bunch of the other angels that are there that are in a similar position as you, but talk to me about what drove you to join right? Because you’ve been involved in this from the beginning, when you looked at what what Hester was doing, what Mikey was doing, and the rest of that team, you said, I want to be a part of this. Tell me why.

Fannie Soubiele 18:20
So I first met hest through insignia ventures Academy, okay, part of my continuous learning, yep, I joined insignia ventures Academy, or short for iba, to kind of understand what’s happening now in the series, a and above investing scene, right? Because I was no it’s been a while since I was, you know, back in VCA, and it was an early stage, and a chance upon Hester, and she told me about it, and I was like, wow, this is really nice, because I’ve heard a lot of different angel investing group in the region, obviously, from from my previous experience as well. I get to know them. I see how they started. I see how they’re investing in startups across the region as well. But epic was something different, because it really kind of focuses on female founders by female executives with diverse backgrounds. And I felt, instead of just joining a different angel investing group, I am joining this group with a purpose that was, at least to me as an individual, a bit more meaningful with the way I want to invest in startups. So

Michael Waitze 19:29
what was that purpose? And maybe, look, I just made a note to myself. You saw me furiously writing something down because I didn’t want to forget this. But here’s what I wrote. A lot of people talk about continuous learning, but boy, you really don’t stop. I mean, you went as far as, no, but I’m not kidding. It’s really kind of cool because you went and you joined iva. So I know the team that runs that as well, but you went there specifically because you’re like, I need to kind of like, update what I’m thinking. Even though I was at JFDI, even though I was at expira, I’ve been out of that game a little bit. Let me just go back and learn more. Most people don’t do that anyway. Very impressive, but so you want to be more purposeful. So how important is this, not just to invest in female founders, but also to educate other women of your status and stature who may not have been exposed to investing at an early age like you were, and kind of bring them along. How important was that to you

Fannie Soubiele 20:22
a lot. I did quite a lot of kind of inclusion, diversity and equity during my corporate life in Amazon, that’s when I really get exposed to how important diversity is, what they call it. And I got myself very into it by participating in various activities, understanding how we should be more kind of helpful and enable women to step up and lean in. So there was a bit of a cross, or rather overlap, between what I have been working on in the startup space, in the investing space, as well as what I’ve learned in the corporate culture ID and E, and then that was the at the right time, when Hester and Mikey form epic. And just like this is perfect, because I could use my experience of, you know, in the ecosystm with startups and VCs, as well as what I’ve learned in the corporate, you know culture on how to improve identity and get people to know about the lack of women leadership, whether is it through the corporate letter, or is it as an individual, as a founder, or even as a women VC, right in in the West, we have heard a lot of these groups coming up, they are attacked slow in this part of the world, and I believe there are a lot of different groups that do that now, which is great, because there’s still more education to be done. You know that there’s a whole talk about how we should not be celebrating women only during March annually, exactly because, because why should it be that event in the first place? Right? But that’s a separate story. So I wanted to like, hey, yes, let’s commemorate March, but at the same time, it doesn’t stop. At the end of March, like this thing continues, and it’s something that we should not stop. It’s continuous again, awareness that we should be kind of telling people around us, not just within the tech sector that we’re in, not just within the corporate or the, you know, cloud sector that I’m in, but really to people, to my parents, to my to my kids, to the people, to my friends who are not even in the sector. Right to understand, hey, you know what? There are 50% of the world who are women, we can do as much and probably the same or better, depending on what sector you’re on. What’s the skill sets? How can we contribute to the society meaningfully and be there? I’d

Michael Waitze 22:51
like to talk about the impact of these organizations. So let me frame this in this way, if you don’t mind, when I moved from a back office job at Morgan Stanley onto the trading desk, literally, the way I looked at the entire world changed, right? Because you’re just your ability and your necessity to analyze information in real time and to analyze it in a different way with different expected outcomes. Changed the way I thought about even just making, like a dinner reservation, and it also gave me more confidence, because if I was winning on the trading desk, I felt like I could win anywhere else, if that made sense, and I was not lacking confidence before that, but it just made it even worse or better, depending your perspective. And I’m curious if you see this with your new members, after they come in join, they learn that all these things are possible that maybe they didn’t even know existed. Do you feel like it changes other parts of their lives as well, and do they reflect that to you at some point, if you know what I mean,

Fannie Soubiele 23:43
I’m sure during networking sessions, I’ve seen women executives who’s really successful in what they’re doing, yeah, and wanting to explore about, like, what’s happening in the startup world. A lot of surprises, because they like to say they didn’t know the ecosystm was growing, and it’s pretty big in at least Singapore, feed to what they thought it was, right, and how they actually can be helpful to some of the stars because of their skill sets, which is and they really want to help, because, hey, I’m really good at say. I’m an HR team, right? I can help you out with how you’re going to hire, how you’re going to do the interviews, how to manage and structure the team, because they have been doing that for the past 1020, years of their lives in the much larger organization. And bring the kind of experience through a startup who is just starting to build that’s where they can make an impact when the project is rather small, because you can start the change from the beginning, which is where it’s really nice, because you have seen how big looks like. How can I start making the changes right from day one, and kind of implement the successful strategies that they have seen in the specific field, industry? Three or sector whatnot, and help them to have a better chance to be successful, yeah,

Michael Waitze 25:06
and I think so look, the podcast for me is a door opener, right? Like, if I didn’t have a podcast, I couldn’t just call Fanny and say, can you talk to me for an hour? Like you wouldn’t do it. But because I do do this, there’s a benefit to you as well, and it makes the conversation so much easier. It makes the approach so much easier, right? I feel like I have a reason to call, and I think if you’re part of an Angel Network, like you said, if you’re a senior HR executive, if you’re a senior finance executive, if you’re a senior any executive at a big at a bank or an investment bank, or wherever, you have no natural way to call any random startup and just say hi, my name is Fannie, and I want to help you. They’re just like, who are you? Why are you calling me bud, right? But if you’re at Epic angels and you’re a potential investor, well now they’re listening as well. So now it opens up all these other avenues where you can have impact. And I think once the investors realize that, they feel like, wow, like, my life just got bigger in a way. No,

Fannie Soubiele 25:57
yeah, it is a platform. It is a platform to allow people interactions between, you know, someone who’s looking to raise funding and expertise and someone who’s looking to support, help and invest in

Michael Waitze 26:09
Yeah, I love it. Are you part of the Investment Committee there?

Fannie Soubiele 26:13
Yes, I am. Actually, the past six months,

Michael Waitze 26:16
I love it. So can I ask you a little bit about investing? If you don’t mind, like, what is your like? Hopefully you’re not agnostic to sector, although, even if you are, you probably focus on a certain thing that you know really well. I’m just curious. Like, when you look at a business, what type of business excites you? Like, what are your favorite kinds of businesses to invest in? If you know what I mean, it doesn’t have to be like FinTech or this thing, but maybe it’s just a structure of a business, if that makes some kind of sense.

Fannie Soubiele 26:42
Yeah, a couple of things. So I wouldn’t say I’m agnostic, because I do want to invest in things that I understand and feel the pain, or at least understand the problem that the user is experiencing. So just personally, for example, I probably would shy away from gaming sector or shy away from web three, because I’m not too familiar in the space and I don’t want to get myself into it, but I was looking more on, say, healthcare, which I know it’s a real problem, and I deeply care about it, or AI, because I’m in the space in Google, I learn a lot, and I know that it’s going to be a game changer. And how can I also personal basis support a company who’s kind of innovating in that space? So yeah, so wouldn’t be agnostic, but something I’ll choose, something that I really care about, or at least understand. What’s the what’s the industry about? It sounds

Michael Waitze 27:49
like something Warren Buffett would say, right? I remember, no, but I remember when he when he invested in Dairy Queen, and people like, what are you doing? And he was like, it’s a really simple business. I completely understand it, and I love ice cream. Why am I not investing in this business? Right?

Fannie Soubiele 28:03
Yeah, something relatable, right? I think that’s the thing about being an angel investor that is slightly different from, say, any institutional investors, because they have investor, investment mandate, right? They Right, right. They want, they have some expectation with their limited partners on these are the type of companies who invest, whether you like it or less individual you know this is the investment vendor. Of course, there will be different criterias based on the experience and the expertise that investors can bring in, but at least as angel investors this way, you can really make a difference, right? And you don’t want to also just invest and leave it alone, because then that’s not so much of a contribution as an investor, because they can just get from any other investors. Why you, yeah, you

Michael Waitze 28:44
want to have a little bit of a value add. And if you don’t know, or, like, I couldn’t add any value to a web three business, because, frankly, I’m just not there yet, right? I wouldn’t do that, but I could probably add a ton of value to a FinTech business or to a media business, because I operated in finance my whole life, and I run a media business. So there I could add value, but otherwise, I’m not sure where else I can add a lot of value. You know, you talked about diversity, and I don’t want to go so far down this rabbit hole. But are you excited by the fact that the epic angels has expanded outside of Singapore, outside of Southeast Asia, outside of Asia, into the rest of the world, so that not only are you getting differences of regional opinion, but a difference of a global opinion. It must be super exciting. If you get there for two years, see that growth, yeah,

Fannie Soubiele 29:27
yeah, definitely, to see how they’ve grown. I don’t know what number and mine in terms of membership, but probably a little bit of an earlier stage, because that was when they started, not too long ago. So it’s been about two years as well. Yeah, and they have grown to, I can’t remember now, but the number is probably in the 300 something members, so huge growth over the past two years, and finding really diverse experience and geography, which really helps because we’re starting to get in. Know, pitch decks from various parts of is beyond Southeast Asia. Now, like we’ve got Australia, we’ve got, you know, the Middle East, really different parts of the world where they’re sending pitch decks and trying to know kind of pitch to us, right? So having different diversity within the Investment Network would be helpful? Yeah, I

Michael Waitze 30:21
think it’s super helpful. So Maaikeicah spent a lot of time talking to me a few months ago about trying to change some of the regulations around angel investing right to try to make it easier for people with lower resources. And I’ll kind of let you go after this. But how important is it to you as well to kind of democratize the investment the investment scene, not just for very successful people to do it, but even for as low as students like, to be able to invest, like, $1,000 or 2500 bucks, so they can get into the flow early in life. Like, if you think about it, you started doing this when you were very young as well, and it kind of changed your whole life. And if you could start even younger, it can change a bunch of other young girls lives as well. Yeah, yeah,

Fannie Soubiele 31:01
yeah, definitely start as early as possible, because, yeah, interest accumulates. You learn a lot as you start investing. Is a journey as well. Yeah, you probably are learning as you’re spending your first few investments, probably till at least the fifth or the 10th before you really start to get something right. Yeah, you gotta start investing early.

Michael Waitze 32:02
Okay, I’m gonna let you go. Fannie Soubiele, the Head of Venture Capital Business Development Southeast Asia at Google Cloud and an Epic Angel, I really appreciate you doing this again. I always say this when I’m done with you, is, if you know anybody else that’s great, whether it’s a portfolio company or other Epic angels that should be on the show, let me know. Thank you again.

Fannie Soubiele 32:20
Thank you so much, Michael,